DanCave - Opinions and Info Comments - Brought to you by JoeUserhttp://dancave.joeuser.com/rss/comments© 2006 - 2008 Stardock Corporation. All rights reserved.A plethora of both opiniated and experiential commentary based on politics, social engineering and technology.en-us2008-07-24T16:29:232008-07-24T16:29:23http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/rss/rss.htmlStardock Rss Generator v1.0, Andrew Powellinfo@stardock.comapowell@stardock.comParaTed2khttp://dancave.joeuser.com/article/95093 Anyone who thinks Syringe Stanley was an innocent man should walk through a group of Crips wearing red... they'll see their hero's legacy for themselves.]]>http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/95093http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/95093Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:29:24 -04002008-07-24T16:29:24ParaTed2k on "California Just Killed An Innocent Man"Dr Guyhttp://dancave.joeuser.com/article/95093http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/95093http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/95093Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:29:24 -04002008-07-24T16:29:24Dr Guy on "California Just Killed An Innocent Man"ParaTed2khttp://dancave.joeuser.com/article/95093 I wonder how many women would take a class about the evils of rape... from a convicted rapist. Would we take or kids to a seminar on child molestation, given by a convicted child molestor?

Syringe Stanley was trash... the trash got taken out.]]>http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/95093http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/95093Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:29:24 -04002008-07-24T16:29:24ParaTed2k on "California Just Killed An Innocent Man"Evorghttp://dancave.joeuser.com/article/87399 Whenever an Officer says they are going to have a "Frank" discussion with someone, it means they are going to chew some ass. That's what Nagin needed, that's what he got. Adm. Allen has too much experience in the Coast Guard to allow someone like Nagin to screw him over.

Nagin is about as useful as tits on a boar. Put him on disregard, let him make decisions that won’t hurt anything, and let the people that know what the hell they’re doing get the job done. And above all, account for how he spends every red cent of the 30 plus billion dollars he’s going to get.]]>http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/87399http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/87399Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:29:24 -04002008-07-24T16:29:24Evorg on New Orleans Needs ImpeachmentjoeKnowledgehttp://dancave.joeuser.com/article/87399 I made a post about this basically calling Nagin a dumbass.

Against obvious intellegence, he wanted people to come back to NO even as drinking water and even washing would have been dangerous. Let alone the people who could get hurt by debree still laying around and the lack of hostpilas open to take care of anyone who could get hurt fixing there homes back up.

AND its still hurricane season!!! Don't you want to fix those levees first?

People so quick to blame Bush totally ignore Nagin and the govener of Loisiana when it was those local goverments that totally failed them... evacuat NO in 24 hours when you KNOW it would take 72 indeed...]]>http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/87399http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/87399Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:29:24 -04002008-07-24T16:29:24joeKnowledge on New Orleans Needs Impeachmentmgoshhttp://dancave.joeuser.com/article/87399 You're forgetting it's Bush's fault for creating Katrina and Rita with his magical weather machine that mysteriously only targets Black people's houses and communities. ]]>http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/87399http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/87399Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:29:24 -04002008-07-24T16:29:24mgosh on New Orleans Needs Impeachmentthedaughterhttp://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85601
]]>http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85601http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85601Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:29:24 -04002008-07-24T16:29:24thedaughter on What is more important. Iran or your Daughter's first date?Christinahttp://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85601 I am going to share this with my class.
]]>http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85601http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85601Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:29:24 -04002008-07-24T16:29:24Christina on What is more important. Iran or your Daughter's first date?Dan B in PAhttp://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443
Yes, I am advocating a change in attitude. No small task, but we have to start somewhere. If we monitor ourselves closely enough and punish those few who abuse the focus on the violent gangs perhaps we can pull it off without sacrificing the point of our society. As it is now, we are stuck with the same problem with death attached to it. Innocent people being unjustly persecuted and killed by a few who have only their own interests at heart.

I have to admit I'd love to see us try it for 90 days and see how the death ratio of innocent to guilty compares to how it is now.]]>http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:29:24 -04002008-07-24T16:29:24Dan B in PA on Hurricanes and Street GangsDr Guyhttp://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443
I think the gray area lies before you identify someone as a criminal. While I get your point about criminals being enemies of the state and not entitled to rights (although I'm not sure that I agree with it), I think the more dangerous consequence would be the violation of an individuals constitutional rights in order to prove that they are a criminal, or gang member.

YES!  To get from point A to Point B, denies the rights of the individual!.  It is a sad fact of our free society that we have to let some guilty go in order that most will have freedom.  We are trying to get it perfect, but never will.  We left eden with Adam.

]]>http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:29:24 -04002008-07-24T16:29:24Dr Guy on Hurricanes and Street GangsDr Guyhttp://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443
A kid who comes from a poor economic class but belives they can do whatever they want and take anything they want without consequence is spoiled and selfish.

And so does the rich kids!  Which is what I said in my Isabel blog.  The ones that are most whinning and complaining and in the end violent are not the Middle class, but ones form both ends of the spectrum.

Ok, I took my son to see the land of the Dead.  That was a good movie to demonstrate this point.

]]>http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:29:24 -04002008-07-24T16:29:24Dr Guy on Hurricanes and Street GangsDr Guyhttp://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443
Since most of these violent street gangs are comprised of blacks (or hispanics, depending on what part of the country you're in) any attempt to dismantle them will be met with cries of RACISM!!!!!

Or whites, depending upon the area of the country.

]]>http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:29:24 -04002008-07-24T16:29:24Dr Guy on Hurricanes and Street Gangsphilomedyhttp://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443
In my opinion, and I stress opinion, the violent gangs of all types surrender any constitutional protection the moment they become part of that culture. They are no longer American citizens, they are enemies of the state and decent people who follow the law and a sense of decency.


I think the gray area lies before you identify someone as a criminal. While I get your point about criminals being enemies of the state and not entitled to rights (although I'm not sure that I agree with it), I think the more dangerous consequence would be the violation of an individuals constitutional rights in order to prove that they are a criminal, or gang member.]]>http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:29:24 -04002008-07-24T16:29:24philomedy on Hurricanes and Street Gangsphilomedyhttp://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443 Sorry I haven't commented on the issue lately, but you've made pretty much all points that I would have, Dan. You answered my questions and there's really nothing else I can say, other than reiterate the fact that I think if we take away one groups constitutional rights, all of our constitutional rights are threatened.

Also, on your points of classifying gangs, I think you run into trouble with 2 and 3. It's often hard to differentiate when someone has a tattoo or wears a color to show allegiance to a gang, and who just happens to have a tattoo or wear a color. This isn't as big a problem as number 3 though, cuz that could (and often does) define labor unions and influential political factions as well.]]>http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:29:24 -04002008-07-24T16:29:24philomedy on Hurricanes and Street Gangsphilomedyhttp://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443
Well then, why aren't you chasing all those who agreed with me and echoed my sentiments all over JU as well? You know, dharma, PB, Shovel, Island Dog, foreverserenity, Righwinger, etc, etc. Hey, I guess you prefer your "racism" sugar coated, I'll keep that in mind next time I have something to say about racial issues. (not.)If you have an issue with me personally, (which you obviously do) it would be nice if you didn't crap all over other people's threads in order to perpetuate it.


So I shouldn't bring stuff up in other people's threads huh? Sorry I misunderstood you, what with echo coming from the other side of your mouth.

If you have issues with what I said about you, come talk on my thread. Until then, you remain a coward and prove my words right with every passing day. ]]>http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:29:24 -04002008-07-24T16:29:24philomedy on Hurricanes and Street GangsDee mhttp://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443 First of all, as I watched TV, I noticed that the words of the reporters did not match the images they were showing.

1) "Turmoil and breakdown at superdome...." All I saw were people who were asking for food or water along with a bunch elderly people,
women and children. The reporter was not attacked, no one tried to rush him and he did NOT feel threatened. So where is this TURMOIL?

2) "Situation out of control in New Orleans...." Once again, reporter is standing smack dab in the middle of the city, no gunshots going off, and not feeling threatened, surrounded by hundreds of people without food and water for days. So is the situation out of control becaused of the gangs, or is it just that THOSE who were SUPPOSED to be giving the people food and water and a way to evacuate DROPPED THE BALL. What better way to take focus off of the issue of government responsibility than to continually report any kind of story that makes the situation in the streets more violent than it actually is.

3) "Looters is rampant and out of control.... people taking TVs...." MOST of the images I saw of looting were the same ones from 4 days ago of people taking food, water, clothes and other things that were NEEDED. However, they OVERLY characterized this as somehow blacks were OUT OF CONTROL and NEED TO BE CRUSHED so that the RIGHTEOUS people of America can TAKE BACK THEIR CITY.

4) "12 year old girl raped in Superdome...." Who saw it? Where is the perpetrator? Where is the victim? What is her name? Where is the EVIDENCE so we can put the BASTARD IN JAIL. Reporters should not report everything that they "HEARD" without confirming it first, especially in a crisis situation. Otherwise, just like I pointed out in the last 3 bullets, the WORDS dont match the IMAGES. And in a crisis like this, we dont want to spread panic and the wrong impression of what is going on. Especially since so many who are going to help may be turned off and refuse to help those in need. If you didn't see it and it didnt happen directly in front of you, and all you have is a story told to you by someone who had it told to them, then it is a RUMOR and should NOT be reported as a FACT.

5) "Shooting at Helicopter stops all evacuations...." OK, maybe maybe not. But somehow I dont see how 1 incident stops the WHOLE show. If the people we have to rely on in a time of crisis are people that wear PINK PANTIES, then I don't need their help at all. Thats like saying "Abandon the women and children! There is DANGER we need to run for our lives and protect our lives... aaaaaahhhh!" In my opinion, this is the attitute of a COWARD who has no place amongst men (or women) in a time of crisis. If the only time you can rescue women and children is when the WHOLE U.S. Army is there, then God help us when the situation EVER GETS REALLY UGLY.
That is piss poor performance on the part of those who supposedly "protect and serve" and shows the utter, complete break down in their ability to help the people who needed help.

]]>http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:29:24 -04002008-07-24T16:29:24Dee m on Hurricanes and Street GangsZoologist03http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85601 That's pretty good. lol

~Zoo]]>http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85601http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85601Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:29:24 -04002008-07-24T16:29:24Zoologist03 on What is more important. Iran or your Daughter's first date?Dan Bhttp://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443
Since I provided links and search criteria that did return and document specific incidents all across the country, and in other countries, I am not sure how that qualifies as the perpetuation of sensationalistic and stereotypical myths. Are you trying to say that the absence of 3 specific stories on the web negates the multitude of other stories that detail the same thing?]]>http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:29:24 -04002008-07-24T16:29:24Dan B on Hurricanes and Street GangsDan Bhttp://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443
Ahh, I see. I got off the track then. I thought my argument with you was whether those 2 groups qualified as violent gangs that needed to be included in any anti-gang effort, whereas you were arguing with my stories. Just as a point of reference, it has been close to 15 years since my days of direct involvement, so I would be surprised if there are specific articles anyway. I'll give up my specific stories in favor of the point that they do those same things across the country and elsewhere as detailed in my responses with links and search criteria, so it does happen just as I stated. I feel I did provide the documented proof of the assertion that they are violent gangs, just like any other violent gang and that race is not the qualifier for that.]]>http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:29:24 -04002008-07-24T16:29:24Dan B on Hurricanes and Street Gangslittle-whiphttp://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443 arggghh....i came up with pages and pages of links, too....but not a single one relating to the actual search criteria. "skinhead violence in malls" is going to get you about a zillion web pages, anything and everything containing those particular words. I have yet to find a single one addressing the actual situations you claim as factually accurate.]]>http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:29:24 -04002008-07-24T16:29:24little-whip on Hurricanes and Street GangsDan Bhttp://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443
I think that is enough for links to back up many of my statements. While there might not be links to my specific stories from a newspaper, there are plenty that detail exactly the same things in numerous places throughout the country. Apparently these things are happening somewhere.

Everyone will just have to make up their minds as to what they want to believe or not.]]>http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:29:24 -04002008-07-24T16:29:24Dan B on Hurricanes and Street Gangslittle-whiphttp://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443I did a Google on "Skinhead violence" and came with pages and pages of links detailing specific incidents from numerous sources. Some of them would be brushed aside as biased and some of them are just non-aligned reporting sources.

Here is a link from National Gang Investigators site on motorcycle gangs. They seem to repeat the exact same things I said (excepting the "towns" remark which I conceded). Apparently I am not the only one out there with unprovable facts at my disposal. www.nagia.org/Motorcycle_Gangs.htm

Stop it. I never asked for a link proving that Skinheads OR Motorcycle gangs engaged in violence. Of course they do, I've already CONCEDED that point.

I asked for proof of the specific crimes that YOU yourself offered up as evidence in support of your claim. Namely, the gang rape of a 14 year old by the Pagans MC and the 2 year siege of a public shopping mall by skinheads. Until you can provide those, I really don't care to discuss it anymore, because I can't stand bullshit sensationalism and the perpetuation of stereotypical myths.]]>http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:29:24 -04002008-07-24T16:29:24little-whip on Hurricanes and Street Gangslittle-whiphttp://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443 I wish you'd quit accusing me of "defending" either of the two groups being discussed here. I have admitted they they are indeed involved in various criminal enterprises and/or violent activity. I simply don't buy into sensationalism and urban legends, and theres no way in hell you're going to convince me that any "commercial" enterprise was able to keep the media totally silent on the issue of "violent skinheads taking over a large mall for 2 whole years" or the gang rape of a 14 year old by a group of Pagans.

There's no doubt in my mind that these stories would have been all over the news, and since I can find absolutely no mention of either incident you chose to cite, I can only conclude that they didnt happen. Why you felt the need to provide details of specific incidences that seem not to have happened AT ALL is beyond me.

I have no doubt I can find all sorts of violent crimes that various members of Motorcycle gangs have been accused and convicted of, and skinheads too. I'm asking you for specific information about very specific incidences that you presented as historical fact, not generalized crime statistics and anecdotes that don't contain the crimes you described.

I could sit here and say, "many police officers commit violent crimes" and be perfectly accurate in doing so. But if I said..."many police officers commit violent crimes, and as a matter of fact, one department raped a 14 year old girl as she happened to walk by and another one openly terrorized mall shoppers for a 2 year period," that would be a different story altogether.

Asking for verification of those particular (and as far as i can tell, bogus) incidences is not the same as "defending" the perpetrators mentioned in the first statement, the accurate one.

Crime is crime, and all perpetrators should be punished for it, period. I defend no criminals, I make no excuses for the very real crimes they commit.

But to create overly dramatic incidences that simply didn't happen is just sensationalizing your own point of view, and has damaged your crediblilty with me.

Asking for a link or two in order to back up your sensational claims is hardly asking you for personal information, but I do agree that we're getting nowhere here, so...uhmm..have a nice day and all.]]>http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:29:24 -04002008-07-24T16:29:24little-whip on Hurricanes and Street GangsDan Bhttp://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443
Here is a link from National Gang Investigators site on motorcycle gangs. They seem to repeat the exact same things I said (excepting the "towns" remark which I conceded). Apparently I am not the only one out there with unprovable facts at my disposal. www.nagia.org/Motorcycle_Gangs.htm]]>http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:29:24 -04002008-07-24T16:29:24Dan B on Hurricanes and Street GangsDan Bhttp://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:29:24 -04002008-07-24T16:29:24Dan B on Hurricanes and Street GangsDan Bhttp://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443
'll back off the "towns" part with bikers as I can't recall the specific incidents (in fact I did not even remember the CA incident until you mentioned it-I just remember seeing incidents listed while training back in the late 80s), and I ackowledge it has been quite a while since incidents like that and am not sure where I would research it. Can't back that one up with cold hard links, so I will concede. The violence and drug related deaths are documented everywhere there are crime statistics being kept. Sorry, I don't buy in to the "the drug supplier is innocent because the user chose to use". If they are the benefactors to the community you are trying to portray, they would not be doing something they know will result in the deaths of young people who are no where near mature enough to make choices like that. They peddle death and protect it with extreme violence.

I did not say skinheads beat women to death, I said they beat others to death and committed group assaults on women, as a group. Hence the enactment of hate laws to add to the prosecution. Children cried because opposing factions were openly fighting in their presence, scaring them. You have never seen a public brawl where children were present and reacted this way? There are numerous statistics available through most states court records that involve groups like those you defend involved in crimes of violence as a group. I do not feel the need to link to every state's online court systems to prove that it happened. Anyone can do that on their own. Just go to state web sites and see if they have court and crime statistics available online. Some do not, some do. Do not try to do a google for news stories on the outside chance that a local paper's articles actually get picked up by Google or that they chose to specifically identify the term gang, skinhead, etc. in their articles. Go to sources that are based on actual court records and police reporting of statistics.

I won't bite on the "it never happened if there is not a news story on it" side of the argument. Just because some commercial interest wanted to keep it quiet or prevent any mention of "gang" does not mean it did not happen. You are welcome to believe what you want, but I stand by my assessment of who needs to be included in the push against the culture of gang violence and the reasons why. If groups like the skinheads never did anything why did we enact hate crime and ethnic intimidation laws all across the country? Just part of some anti-white conspiracy I suppose? I am white and welcomed those laws, I saw the need and supported putting a stop to it. We should have addressed all the groups though, not just the media spotlighted ones. LA tried to do that, but a lot of it got overturned. That is why I said the ACLU should not be allowed to file any briefs related to gang suppresion afforts. They have perverted the interpretation of the Constitution's provisions to protect the innocent from unjust prosecution to protecting the guilty from the innocent. If bikers do not meet any one of the three criteria I initially set out, then I would favor removing them from the effort.

On the issue of how I protect my privacy, that is my choice to make and there is no shame in it. In fact, I give talks now on Internet Security (my new life is in computers) to teachers and always tell them to keep kids from disclosing things that give away who and where they are. People can have opinions and still maintain a degree of personal anonymity and I appreciate people who respect my personal space on that. It does not detract from the thoughts nor the legitimacy of things that are fact. I have referred everyone to the normal reporting sources for statements regarding types of crimes and who they are committed by, that is good enough. They are there and they bare it out. I fail to see where disclosing personal information somehow makes those sources any better.

I can see you feel very strong about your defense of 2 of those groups. I don't think there is anything I can say that you will not feel isn't good enough. I am sure there are many others who will not agree with various parts of my statements for a host of reasons. ACLU, Social Crusaders, Jesse Jackson, Supremacists, and the gangs themselves would disagree with me I am sure. That was the point, to provoke thought and discussion. That is fine, the whole world does not have to see it my way. In the end though, we still need to address this issue and many will agree. Many will also agree as to who it should not exclude. Many will also agree that race is an unreliable and incomplete method to base a solution on.

I think you and I are just re-hashing the same things over and over and not really moving either one of us. That is fine too, now others need to look at that, find their own facts as they see them and make their own decisions. You have given a lot of the other side of some thse points for people to chew on and I encourage everyone to do exactly that. I would not anyone to blow aside a single thing you or I said. We have to look at the whole picture and then decide where to go from there.

There, I did exactly as you suggested (because I agreed with you) and kept it focused to the issues and away from turning in to a personal confrontation. You can return the respect by allowing me to set my own personal limits while discussing these things.]]>http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:29:24 -04002008-07-24T16:29:24Dan B on Hurricanes and Street Gangslittle-whiphttp://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443
It happens all the time, all across the country. And biker gangs have previously taken over and terrorized entire towns.


Could you provide some documentation of that, please? A link or two? I'm serious, other than various 'runs' and parties, I have never once heard of such a thing, with the exception of that movie "The Wild Ones" which I believe was based on events in Hollister, CA, back in the late 40's or early 50's. Having spend a good many years in Cleveland, where the Hell's Angels are HUGE, and Baltimore, where the Pagans and Fate's Assembly MCs compete for members, as well as along Florida's gulf coast which was known for it's sizeable population of Outlaws and Devil's Disciples, I seriously haven't heard of such dramatic events.

Of course, if you call a couple hundred bikers passing through on a poker run or some other charitable event 'taking over a town' then I'd say that was a problem with perception. It does happen during Bike Week in Daytona and the Black Hills Classic in Sturgis once a year, but these revelers are welcomed by town officials...all those tourist dollars, you know?

Before we moved to Virginia, we lived directly across the street from the Lake County fairgrounds in Painesville, OH, which hosts an event called "The Louie Run" each year, drawing tens of thousands of bikers from all over the country. Other than the petty squabbles, public intoxication, and driving offenses expected from ANY large crowd like this, I never heard of any serious rise in the local crime rate during this annual 2 day event, and it's sponsored by the Cleveland chapter of the Hells Angels--the most notorious biker gang of all. I do admit there was a bit of nervousness a few years ago when Sonny Barger was attending a book signing there, due to some feuding between the Angels and Outlaws, but again...the event went off without any incidents.

Anyway, I would like to see some evidence your claim, other than your statements alone.

BTW - I have had to talk to many parents who have lost children to drugs, including meth, that originated with one or another local chapter. So don't even try to promote the idea that they only hurt each other and no one else and are somehow about noble activities to help their communities.


I agree that meth is a terrible drug, and I too have been aquainted with many addicts. Like any drug, it ruins lives, however, comparing a voluntary activity like drug abuse to the menace created to non-drug using, law abiding citizens created by street gangs fighting over turf is disingenuous. The only way we are going to alleviate the crimes associated with addiction is to reduce the demand for the drugs. As long as there is demand, someone, somewhere, will be willing to supply it, whether that be bikers setting up meth labs or Crips cooking crack.

repeatedly raped girlfriend saying he should be dead for not being able to protect her because they passed a bar just as a group of Pagans who had too much to drink were coming out


Again, I would like to see a link or some documentation, including the conviction of the perpetrators, not just the allegations. I am not challenging the truthfulness of your statement, it just seems to me that everyone has a horror story or two and they all sound vaguely familiar. Again, I am not denying that certain biker gangs are involved in criminal activity, what I am challenging is the assertion that they are widely engaging in violent crimes against law abiding citizens, a few incidental occurences does not prove that. Hell, I'm sure I can find incidents of police officers involved in violent crimes, too, but the incidence of such crimes compared to their sheer numbers make such assertions ridiculous.

Understand that I am a big proponent of facts and would love to name specific towns, but I will not disclose things that define my locale. I think you can understand that given my background that is the prudent line to draw.


That seems a bit 'convenient' Dan, seeing as how this is the internet and links to various news stories describing the incidences you've mentioned here should be easily found via google or other search engines. However, when I entered "Pagans Motorcycle Gang rapes 14 year old girl" (and various permutations of the same) into google, I could find nothing relating to this incident. Im certain that it would have been BIG news, too, so whats the deal?

My local area has a large Mall that for almost 2 years was completely taken over by skinheads. They tagged every back hall and front facade and hung out in large groups in the lobbies, intimidating and threatening any number of people on a daily basis


Again, a google search for "Skinhead mall violence" turned up no news articles on this, and you say it went on for two years? I found a single blog about some incidences in a Charlotte NC mall involing teenagers claiming to be skinheads. No major news coverage was given to this terrifying situation?

Again, I recognize the fact that skins do indeed engage in violent behavior, but your anecdotes seem overly dramatic and alarmist, and I can find no evidence of their truthfulness in spite of spending the last 30 minutes searching for any mention of them at all in the mainstream media. Providing a link is not going to 'blow your cover" Dan, no matter how much you may try to convince me of such.

They made group assaults on women and they beat to death others.


Surely this must have made headlines SOMEWHERE.

BTW little_whip. I appreciate the respect of your tone and willingness to discuss on such a sensitive topic, especially since you have personal parts of your life that influence you in this area. The private email is something I do not do just as a personal line.


Thats fine, Dan, my little anti-fan club seems to have gone to bed for the moment. I simply ask you not to let them take this off topic and turn it into an arena for personal assaults which detract from the issues actually being discussed.

Please do not take any passion of my own views as any kind of personal affront, it is just the passion of the topic speaking, not a judgment on any person. I know you have been bashed by others for some of your views and so have some on the other side of the fence,


I don't. And as for the others, I don't care one whit how they feel about my views, the sun still shone on my face this morning. I only get annoyed when there's an interesting conversation budding and they turn the direction of the thread back towards various JU disputes that occurred elsewhere.


Featured? Does that mean a spot on Fox news?


LoL...don't we wish! Your article is featured on JU's home page, thus getting more exposure not only here, but on the various sites they syndicate to.

Just as an aside to this topic and more food for thought, I used to travel around as a guest speaker to galvanize neighborhoods to fight back against the crime with their local police.


As an aside of my own, if you've appeared in public in that capacity, why do you feel that providing internet links to these alleged dramatic incidents of wild bikers taking over towns, gang raping 14 year old girls and skinheads terrorizing a mall for 2 years, beating women to death and scaring the little children is going to compromise your personal security in some way?

Turns out it was German/Dutch people talking about Italians and Irish


Haha, I guess at least some of them worked it all out, because I am of German/Irish descent!

]]>http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:29:24 -04002008-07-24T16:29:24little-whip on Hurricanes and Street GangsDan Bhttp://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443
One of my favorite examples was to caution against letting history repeat itself. I used the example of turn of the century (19th to 20th) Pennsylvania. At that time german was the preominate culture and language. I found a newspaper article that talked about complaints about how the new immigrants were filthy, lazy and causing crime. They were accused of refusing to learn the language of their new home (German) and of trashing whole neighborhhods with their disgusting ways and criminal gangs. This went on for years. I could have sworn I was reading an article right of the present about blacks or hispanics. Turns out it was German/Dutch people talking about Italians and Irish. They stayed so focused on the topic of what culture they were that no one ever truly addressed the actual gangs. We all know now what those Italian and Irish based gangs did later. We also know what the good honest people from those groups did for communities. People stayed so polarized along cultural and language lines they never got together to address that small group who represented the violent gang culture that was the real threat.

So what do we do, repeat the mistakes of the past or move beyond that and focus on the real problem?]]>http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:29:24 -04002008-07-24T16:29:24Dan B on Hurricanes and Street GangsDan Bhttp://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443
Please do not take any passion of my own views as any kind of personal affront, it is just the passion of the topic speaking, not a judgment on any person. I know you have been bashed by others for some of your views and so have some on the other side of the fence, but I try very hard to avoid that way of thinking and prefer to stay on the issue as the point of contention not the individual. I say that as much for others who tend to feel agitated at my words as for you. Having said that I do on occassion express an honest impression of how someone is looking to me based on their words. Generally not meant as an insult, but as a method to get someone to think about it and their choice of words.

Featured? Does that mean a spot on Fox news? Can I be a highly paid "retired" expert on something? I thought not, oh well Powerball and highly paid expert, pipe dreams I guess.
]]>http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:29:24 -04002008-07-24T16:29:24Dan B on Hurricanes and Street GangsDan Bhttp://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443
That was just a local example. It happens all the time, all across the country. And biker gangs have previously taken over and terrorized entire towns. The difference was they moved on after their fun, inner city gangs stick around, they don't have the same level of mobility. The inner city gangs are consigned to mostly reecruting new people to start new chapters in towns where they try to entrench. I will acknowledge the motorcycle variety haven't been that overt in quite a while, but that is only because they learned the art of low profile to keep the heat off. They will still gladly attack an innocent person for "disrespecting" a member of the gang just like inner city gangs do for turning down the wrong street. And the definition of "disrespect" could be as simple as looking at some one in what is perceived as the "wrong way". I personally have been present for the taking of many such assault reports. In the context of just the couple of months ago example, that is in the present enough for me to keep them in the same grouping with other violent gangs. It is the culture to be violent and since you were associated with them you know that to be true. Even the term 1%s is intended to denote being outside the confines of society. It is often used as a banner of being a martyr of some type to generate a sense of sympathy and comraderie, but then the international terrorists make claim to the same thing.

BTW - I have had to talk to many parents who have lost children to drugs, including meth, that originated with one or another local chapter. So don't even try to promote the idea that they only hurt each other and no one else and are somehow about noble activities to help their communities. I understand you have a different view due to personal involvement with someone, understand that I have a much different one becuase of my involvement with the victims of their activities. Believe me when I say that when you have to look at the face of a dead 14 year old as the result of too much crystal and the eyes of their grieving parent or the bloodied face of a young man as he stands over the bed of his repeatedly raped girlfriend saying he should be dead for not being able to protect her because they passed a bar just as a group of Pagans who had too much to drink were coming out, all willingness to symnpathize or allow to exist the kind of culture that produces that type of people evaporates instantly. And although I wasn't present for the first example I used, I can only imagine how painful it was for the investigating officer of the 2 dead little girls when the mother asked, "Why are people like this allowed to be in our community?" Probably identical to the faces and pain of the people in New Orleans right now.

Understand that I am a big proponent of facts and would love to name specific towns, but I will not disclose things that define my locale. I think you can understand that given my background that is the prudent line to draw. I will be glad to drop all my examples based on personal experiences if naming a town is required to back it up. In lieu of that I would refer anyone to the Uniform Crime Statistics and research under violent crimes sections. You will find numerous examples from across the country of violent crimes committed by inner city gangs, motorcycle gangs, supremacy gangs and ethnic based gangs.

My local area has a large Mall that for almost 2 years was completely taken over by skinheads. They tagged every back hall and front facade and hung out in large groups in the lobbies, intimidating and threatening any number of people on a daily basis. They committed robberies and assaults and got drunk to the point of zero inhibition (except of course for the SHARPs who also added drugs to the mix). They regularly fought with wach other making small children who wanted to see the big toy store cry as they brawled openly. They made group assaults on women and they beat to death others. I was asked to come look in to and help develop a strategy to remove the same thing in several east coast mid-size cities and suburban areas. They are not as visible now because so much attention was given them last decade. As I pointed out before, skinheads were focused on in those communities where they flourished and other gangs were ignored allowing them to grow in strength and numbers. If we now focus on only those other groups, the remnants of the groups we focused on before will have the chance to re-group and re-emerge. Their intent has not changed just because their visibility or numbers have dwindled. Given the chance they will do exactly the same as the violent gangs in New Orleans. This is about a culture of violence and preying upon the defenseless to get more for yourself, not about where you come from or what race you are.

We must go after all of them if we are going to truly get this under control and not see something like New Orleans happen again. If one group has smaller numnbers than another, fine they will be easier to deal with, but they must still be dealt with. And they must be dealth with on the basis of their culture of violence not their ethnic or racial background.]]>http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:29:24 -04002008-07-24T16:29:24Dan B on Hurricanes and Street Gangslittle-whiphttp://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443 Oh, and congrats on being featured!]]>http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:29:24 -04002008-07-24T16:29:24little-whip on Hurricanes and Street Gangslittle-whiphttp://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443
So, from your firsthand knowledge, white gangs are not that menacing to white people. Revelation of the century there.


Here's a revelation for you, Phil, you have a problem with reading comprehension.

What I SAID was that predominantly white 'gangs' (such as the Hells Angels and even the Supremacist groups) pose the most danger to others involved in their criminal activities, ie: mostly other whites.

Conversely, (although I didn't actually state this in my original comment) the predominantly black gangs prey mostly on other blacks, mainly because once they take over a neighborhood the whites move out.

You can stop putting words in my mouth any day now...

Just cuz you're a racist who gets accused of racism doesn't mean that people can't say things about race. Look at Dr. Guy. Look at Gideon. They've both written articles about race relations without getting any sort of backlash from anyone. You got called out for actually being a racist, not for pointing out matter of race.


Well then, why aren't you chasing all those who agreed with me and echoed my sentiments all over JU as well? You know, dharma, PB, Shovel, Island Dog, foreverserenity, Righwinger, etc, etc. Hey, I guess you prefer your "racism" sugar coated, I'll keep that in mind next time I have something to say about racial issues. (not.)

If you have an issue with me personally, (which you obviously do) it would be nice if you didn't crap all over other people's threads in order to perpetuate it.

Just a couple of months ago a police officer in a nice suburban community was killed for stopping a car with an expired registration.


Wow, just a couple of months ago? And to think this sort of crime happens almost daily... but perpetuated by blacks. Yeah, those bikers are just as dangerous, they sure are.

When the cameras go off, they are still the same violent, criminal group of people who would not hesitate for a moment to take over an antire community to satisfy their own lust for power.


I think you've been watching too many B movies, Dan. LoL, I've been around hard-core bikers most of my life, and not a one of them ever expressed a desire to take over an entire community, for any reason.

Anyway, I'm pressed for time, so I may get back to you later on this, or even discuss it via email if you wish, leaving dabe and Phil to their own little hate-fest here.

I'd just like to ask you how many 1%ers you personally know, and I'd also like to know the names of the towns, large or small, where gangs of skinheads roam the streets, because I've lived all over the US and have yet to see a one.]]>http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:29:24 -04002008-07-24T16:29:24little-whip on Hurricanes and Street GangsDan Bhttp://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443
I do not have all the answers either, but between all the people who share the same starting and ending point it can be easier than you think to fill in the middle. It is usually when we think that where we are starting and where we want to end up are vastly different that we get stuck on the middle part.

I can go back to my own experiences and see what might have been a factor. I come from a period when hard consequences were still a real threat and fear for a youth contemplating an anti-social path. My mother was poor and she was uninvolved in my upbringing. My father was a Marine and left for better things early in my life. I had all the criteria to go down a very bleak path, and to some degree I started that way. But there were real consequences from society that matched my actions. In time I learned the simple concept that "If I do this, then this other thing will happen to me". and that gave the pause needed to learn (and be taught) how to walk the better path. The same for my parents. If I went down the wrong path, my parents would be held accountable in some way as well. The lack of involvement in parenting by my parents was the main contributing factor to my starting out the wrong path. My own kids do not have a mother, but they have a very involved and aware father. From the oldest to the youngest they make me very proud of their accomplishments, humanity and sense of right and wrong (although they often express frustration at how well I remember my own youthful experiences-they originally thought I was psychic). So my own experience says an involved parent will prevent a lot. A system of comsequences will prevent a lot. An uninvolved parent and a lack of consequences will not prevent much of anything.

We dispensed with that in the 60s (a questionable by-product of our social growth back then). As a result youth now believe they can do anything and there will none or little consequence. There is no more pause to allow the chance to be directed down a better path. Not to mention that those already well down the path of violence are allowed to stay among us victimizing innocent people over and over.

That is just the preventive side. We also have to deal with what already is and we have to deal with it decisively. There are 2 benefits to dealing with what already is. One it serves as a very strong message to those needing the pause to think and second, it serves to remove those already over that line. Perhaps we don't need to be as drastic as snipers, but I can say that responding to merciless violence from an uncaring enemy with a greater force and mercilessness has quite an impact. In the end the people hurting innocents are cowards and bullies who run the second they get a bloody nose.]]>http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:29:24 -04002008-07-24T16:29:24Dan B on Hurricanes and Street Gangsdabehttp://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443
Bear in mind that there are many more youth from poor families that never get involved in violent gangs than those who do. Apparently it is not as simple as class and economics, nor can it be any more pigeon holed based on economic grouping than on racial grouping.


Well, all I was really alluding to is that it is predominantly a class issue, though you're right about less rather than more kids join gangs, but also to the overwhelming complexity of the issue. there is no simple answer. And, I certainly would not want class to be the excuse for any criminal behavior. That's why I agree that much of it begins in the home. But then, we have the issue of bad homes. Then what's the answer? Very complex stuff. I'm not a sociologist, and I have no answers, but I cannot just dismiss it all unfixable. I'm too idealistic for that.

Having said that, I think it's imperative, partly because of bad homes, that social programs, ie midnight basketball, teen jobs and training, work programs, Head Start, whatever, be funded to the max to get to these kids early. Once they have become gang members, it's usually too late.]]>http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:29:24 -04002008-07-24T16:29:24dabe on Hurricanes and Street Gangsdabehttp://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443
Now we just fill in the middle part.


Ackkkkk.......... not an easy task. ]]>http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:29:24 -04002008-07-24T16:29:24dabe on Hurricanes and Street GangsDan Bhttp://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443
I appreciate the positive approach to my words. Bear in mind that there are many more youth from poor families that never get involved in violent gangs than those who do. Apparently it is not as simple as class and economics, nor can it be any more pigeon holed based on economic grouping than on racial grouping. Giving people hope does go a long way to leaving them less susceptible to negative influences. But I still believe the majority of it starts at home. And once someone has turned the corner to becoming a violent, "me first" member of a gang, they are past the point of me being willing to address social issues on their behalf. They made their choice and have to understand there will be consequences. They are now a threat and must be treated accordingly.

Just for the record I do not favor local communities being allowed to define what constitutes a gang. This is where the most abuses occur. It is a national problem and should be handled as a nation.]]>http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:29:24 -04002008-07-24T16:29:24Dan B on Hurricanes and Street GangsDan Bhttp://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443]]>http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:29:24 -04002008-07-24T16:29:24Dan B on Hurricanes and Street Gangsdabehttp://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443
So, from your firsthand knowledge, white gangs are not that menacing to white people. Revelation of the century there.


Nail on the head, here.

When I was growing up in a small town in Connecticut, during the 60's, the town made it illegal for kids to hang out in the parking lot outside of the Friendly's. They never set number or time limit. It was a law that could be arbitrarily implemented if anyone was perceived as "loitering", demonstrating, or being in a gang. No definition of gang was necessary. It was this knee jerk reaction to anti-war demonstrations, mostly.

My point is, any group of people can qualify as a gang if they are perceived by some others, usually in positions of authority, as up to no good. Without the ACLU fighting for civil rights for everyone, no one has any civil rights. "I may not like what you say, but I respect your right to say it." Actual criminal activity, on the other hand, should be dealt with, including initiating law enforcement, but also dealing with the social aspects of what causes a person to commit a crime or join a criminal gang. That social understanding is where we, as a society, fall short.

Dan, this is a good article. I just wish that the issue of race wouldn't always become the topic, but rather the issue of class and money and access. For lots of kids, it seems that their only access to anything is with criminal gangs. Because of class, in which the predominant poor are people of color, it gets simplified immediately by simpletons as race issues.]]>http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:29:24 -04002008-07-24T16:29:24dabe on Hurricanes and Street GangsDan Bhttp://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443
An earlier post from me "I also differentiated between those who are active violent members and those who are pre-violent members". That was referring to my original post.]]>http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:29:24 -04002008-07-24T16:29:24Dan B on Hurricanes and Street GangsDan Bhttp://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443
In my original post. Marked 1,2 and 3.]]>http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:29:24 -04002008-07-24T16:29:24Dan B on Hurricanes and Street GangsDan Bhttp://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443
Depends on the gang. Being spoiled and selfish is not an economic condition. It is an attitude. A kid who comes from a poor economic class but belives they can do whatever they want and take anything they want without consequence is spoiled and selfish. A lot of that starts at home when parents do not want to go to the trouble of following through with consequences based on actions. In many cases it is parents who are also spoiled and selfish and view having to deal with their children as an imposition. That is why I advocated consequences for them as well when they have been put on notice there is a problem they must deal with and then don't.]]>http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:29:24 -04002008-07-24T16:29:24Dan B on Hurricanes and Street Gangsphilomedyhttp://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443
I gave three primary points for defining a gang member.


Where?

And do criminals still have constitutional rights? Non-violent gang members released from prison or who desert the gang? Are misguided youth who've been in the gang for 2 days and done nothing treated the same as 5 or 10 year veterans who actively recruit and perpetuate violence?

I'm not trying to be hostile here, but there is a bad history of inaccurately defining gangs, and if one sector's constitutional rights are threatened, all sector's potentially are. Just to cite an example, the CPD's definition of a gang for a very long time was "3 or more urban youths gathered together."]]>http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:29:24 -04002008-07-24T16:29:24philomedy on Hurricanes and Street GangsDan Bhttp://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443
I gave three primary points for defining a gang member. I also differentiated between those who are active violent members and those who are pre-violent members. A gang member who has committed a violent crime should not be coming out of prison, so I don't consider an answer to that part of the question. I also advocated the controversial suggestion for the removal of constitutional gaurantees for anyone found to be an active member of a violent gang. Call them enemy combatants if you will. I've been in those neighborhoods and communities under the thumb of violent gangs. There is no difference from a war zone. They are waging war on our people, our way of life and our freedoms, just like any of the international terrorists. The gangs are almost worse because they are already right under our feet and already launching their daily attacks. I understand it is a radical attitude in a land like ours, but people who belong to groups that advocate and participate in the kind of things that happened down south in the face of such a humanatarian crisis are my enemy who would take the life of my children, the same as a terrorist who smuggles a bomb in to their school (in fact the gangs already kill children in their schools). I do not see anything in the Constitution that says anyone has any rights when they are trying to kill me or my children. If someone is wearing the colors (of any violent gang-not just inner city) and walking down the street with an AK, they are the enemy and instantly abrogate any claim to rights in my mind. They make their intent clear by their actions and affiliation.

We have to make people more afraid to be associated with a gang as opposed to how it is now where people are afraid of the gangs.]]>http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:29:24 -04002008-07-24T16:29:24Dan B on Hurricanes and Street Gangsphilomedyhttp://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443
Again, I caution against approaching this with the mask of race or culture. Miss any one of the violent gangs to focus on just specific races and you allow the others to become stronger and move in to the vacuum. The intent is the same for all of them. To take what they want by any means and to have absolute power and control over those around them, at any cost. We either deal with them all or it will fail and images like New Orleans will just have different faces on them.

You are definitely entitled to your opinion, and I would never advocate that being taken away from anyone. In an attempt that we, as a people, do not miss an opportunity I would point out that if you allow yourself to approach this with the blinders of prejudice, sterotypes or media images you can not fix this particular problem. We can not go after only brown skinned, middle age, arab men and expect to win the fight against terrorism. Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols were responsible for 160 innocent men, women and children losing their lives. Eric Rudolph, and those who protected and enabled him, killed and injured how many people in the name of saving the sanctity of life? When 331 men, women and children lost their lives in Beslan, Russia last year, were all the terrorists middle aged arab men?

The same is true of any violent gang driven by greed, lust and a desire to have power over others to make themselves feel stronger. It is the alignment with a violent gang that should be the determining factor, nothing else should be a consideration.


Well said.]]>http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:29:24 -04002008-07-24T16:29:24philomedy on Hurricanes and Street GangsDan Bhttp://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443
Depends on what streets. In some communities they are more visible and prevalent than inner city street gangs in the inner city neighborhoods. Big cities are not the only streets in our country, they're just the ones that get most attention and media images.

"but they rarely victimize anyone other than fellow criminals, ie: those that are also involved in drug manufacturing/trafficking." Thats is just patently false, They have done a lot to try and reduce attention on them by being low key and "respectable", but they are no less dangerous or any less willing to grab what they can whenever they feel like it, whoever it hurts. I would suggest checking the Uniform Crime Statistics from the FBI which is a compilation of crimes as reported by local communities. Just a couple of months ago a police officer in a nice suburban community was killed for stopping a car with an expired registration. Shot point blank in the face. My a motorcycle gang member who thought he was being for an outstanding warrant. The same person, with co-members with him, later ran over 2 little girls trying outrun the police as they closed in.

"when's the last time you heard of a local Crips or Bloods gang organizing a toy drive or a poker run to benefit charity"

Actually quite a few, especially the Crips and Latin Kings. However, it is a move by some of the leaders to appear respectable and polished, just like the motorcycle gangs. If you were associated with a motorcycle gang, then you know this is the intent and that is specifically designed to promote a positive image just to keep the heat off. When the cameras go off, they are still the same violent, criminal group of people who would not hesitate for a moment to take over an antire community to satisfy their own lust for power. The gangsters of the 20s carried on like many of the street gangs of today, later they figured out that pretending to be respectful and pretending to be benefactors kept the heat off and garnered some limited community support. There is a most widely used terrorist manual that says to do the same things before you blow up men, women and children.

"who recruit neglected children, arm them, and set them to violence." Either you don't know much about skinheads or are intentionally omitting the truth. What group of white kids do you think are targeted for recruitment by white supremacists? Disaffected, neglected, socially mal-adjusted and poor white kids. While not all of the kids turn out to be poor, the threat of becoming poor, not getting your fair share and "we will love you and be your family" is the common theme among them all. Not all street gang members in inner city neighborhoods come from totally poor families either, but they use the same vulnerabilities to recruit. In the 70s and 80s a lot attention was paid to the white supremacy based groups and that allowed the inner city groups to grow and become stronger. Do it the other way around and the same thing will happen.

Again, I caution against approaching this with the mask of race or culture. Miss any one of the violent gangs to focus on just specific races and you allow the others to become stronger and move in to the vacuum. The intent is the same for all of them. To take what they want by any means and to have absolute power and control over those around them, at any cost. We either deal with them all or it will fail and images like New Orleans will just have different faces on them.

You are definitely entitled to your opinion, and I would never advocate that being taken away from anyone. In an attempt that we, as a people, do not miss an opportunity I would point out that if you allow yourself to approach this with the blinders of prejudice, sterotypes or media images you can not fix this particular problem. We can not go after only brown skinned, middle age, arab men and expect to win the fight against terrorism. Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols were responsible for 160 innocent men, women and children losing their lives. Eric Rudolph, and those who protected and enabled him, killed and injured how many people in the name of saving the sanctity of life? When 331 men, women and children lost their lives in Beslan, Russia last year, were all the terrorists middle aged arab men?

The same is true of any violent gang driven by greed, lust and a desire to have power over others to make themselves feel stronger. It is the alignment with a violent gang that should be the determining factor, nothing else should be a consideration.]]>http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:29:24 -04002008-07-24T16:29:24Dan B on Hurricanes and Street Gangsphilomedyhttp://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443
Violent members of street gangs are not poor, underpriviledged children anymore, they are selfish, spoiled brats that will do anything, including kill and rape, to get what they want for nothing.


I'm sure there's some spoiled and and some underprivileged, and I'd venture to say that the underprivileged vastly outnumber the spoiled. I doubt new gang recruits, which tend to be in their teens, are selfish and spoiled. ]]>http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:29:24 -04002008-07-24T16:29:24philomedy on Hurricanes and Street Gangsphilomedyhttp://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443
Thats not to say this excuses their criminal element, but again, outside of that particular element they're often seen as a benevolent presence in the area.


So outside of their criminal element they're often seen as a benevolent presence, huh? So basically what you're saying is that they're good except when they're committing crimes. Damn, they should get medals.

So, while I do agree that gangs consisting of mostly whites exist, I don't agree that their menace is anywhere NEAR that of the neighborhood minority gangs, who recruit neglected children, arm them, and set them to violence.


Again I speak from first hand knowledge.


So, from your firsthand knowledge, white gangs are not that menacing to white people. Revelation of the century there.

Since most of these violent street gangs are comprised of blacks (or hispanics, depending on what part of the country you're in) any attempt to dismantle them will be met with cries of RACISM!!!!!


Just cuz you're a racist who gets accused of racism doesn't mean that people can't say things about race. Look at Dr. Guy. Look at Gideon. They've both written articles about race relations without getting any sort of backlash from anyone. You got called out for actually being a racist, not for pointing out matter of race.

Giving a job to a hard core gangster will not stop their activity. These are self-gratifying, "I want it all for nothing" monsters. They are cut from the same mold as Bin Laden.


I think this varies from place to place. The Conservative Vice Lords spent a lot of time trying to beautify the neighborhoods they were pushed into in Chicago before they city government decided it didn't like its policies criticized and started arbitrarily arresting people.

Membership in a gang needs to be a severe crime with a matching punishment, even before committing a violent act with the gang.The ACLU needs to not be allowed to file any legal briefs in support of gangs. The gangs need all constituional gaurantees stripped away as they are not Americans, they are an enemy bent on taking over.


Do criminals still have constitutional rights? Former gang members who've been released from prison? Former gang members who cooperate with police? How do you define a gang?
]]>http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:29:24 -04002008-07-24T16:29:24philomedy on Hurricanes and Street GangsjoeKnowledgehttp://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443 "And how many of them do you see stalking city streets?"

I think that is the point. You don't see them at all.
Until you do something to them or bother their actions... and their actions is to take what is yours.

The characteristic is still the same. The Mob is a great thing for your community, untl they feel your not needed anymore.

When it comes to gangs, the dea rise again.
]]>http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:29:24 -04002008-07-24T16:29:24joeKnowledge on Hurricanes and Street GangsjoeKnowledgehttp://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443 We need to view taking out the gangs as a military action with the appropriate resources and actions for that perspective. Even to the point of placing military snipers on rooftops to take out armed gang members the moment they become visible on the street, before they can kill or injure yet another innocent person.


I actually agree with that one. I may be more relaxed on it, but once a gang becomes a major menace and the police or the town call for help (or the nieghborhood community does it) and or the crime rate goes beyond a specific point, this should be done.


Too many people thinks it is so cool to be associated with a gang (just like in Muslim countires too many people think its cool to be a terrorist) so make it uncool.

War On Crime Part 2: Sniper Alley]]>http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:29:24 -04002008-07-24T16:29:24joeKnowledge on Hurricanes and Street Gangslittle-whiphttp://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443
Skinheads are also a gang and, with the exception of SHARPs, are exclusively white


And how many of them do you see stalking city streets?

Motorcycle gangs such as the Hell's Angels, Pagans, etc. are mostly white and do all the same things as inner city gangs,


Having been married to a member of one of the 'big 4' I'll have to disagree with you here. Yes, they are involved in meth trafficking, (amongst other things) but they rarely victimize anyone other than fellow criminals, ie: those that are also involved in drug manufacturing/trafficking.

In addition, they are often involved in their local communities in a positive way...when's the last time you heard of a local Crips or Bloods gang organizing a toy drive or a poker run to benefit charity?

Thats not to say this excuses their criminal element, but again, outside of that particular element they're often seen as a benevolent presence in the area.

Sure, they have clubhouses, but they don't take over an entire neighborhood, causing law abiding people to fear their safety just trying to visit the corner store for a pack of smokes. Generally speaking, if you don't fuck with them, they won't even notice you exist.

Not so with the minority gangs. Sheesh, in some areas people (meaning law abiding, non-gang involved people) have been shot just for turning down the 'wrong' street.

As far as skinheads and klansmen go, outside of the prison system where the Aryan Brotherhood is still strong, they're dead organizations.

Again I speak from first hand knowledge. They're splintered and infighting and infiltrated to the max, and I doubt that any event could cause more than a few dozen of them to come together in any one place. (even when they do, most of them have traveled hundreds of miles to attend, demonstrating how scattered their support truly is.)

So, while I do agree that gangs consisting of mostly whites exist, I don't agree that their menace is anywhere NEAR that of the neighborhood minority gangs, who recruit neglected children, arm them, and set them to violence.

Unlike the Hell's Angels, Pagans, Banditos,and Outlaws, who pretty much confine their activities to others of their ilk, and supremacist groups whose overall numbers are miniscule, widely seperated and warring with each other more often than plotting against minorities, these gangs continue to grow and increase their menace.]]>http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443http://dancave.joeuser.com/article/85443Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:29:24 -04002008-07-24T16:29:24little-whip on Hurricanes and Street Gangs